The problem is you are not accounting for the large amount drag when a motor mounted on a pod is below the surface of the water. It is not the same as an ebike assisting you while you are pedaling. 100 watts of output will be less then the drag of the motor and pod in the water.
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I did try to account for that in my Theoretical reduction of 300 W down to 100W. But nevertheless the 6374 is only $130, And there is a video of Nick hobby Getting onto foil on flat water. Is so a complete kit based off that motor appears to be perfect.
I just need to make a complete parts list based off a 6374 motor
All the parts have been put in a kit and is for sale now, it’s the Foildrive or the Manta Takeoff.
No sane person is going to make a kit and sell it at cost with all the support headaches that are going to come with it.
Electronics and salt water is a recipe for disaster hence the high margin that companies charge for their systems.
All this stuff is expensive, and without e-bike scale the price will not come down to sub $1000 for a turnkey kit without some clever engineering which will take time and money.
The current commercial offerings are about as low power as you want. The Venn diagram of people wanting to have an assist just for dock starting is infinitesimally small. Almost everyone wants to ride small foils on small boards which the current assists barely cope with.
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All the parts have been put in a kit and is for sale now, it’s the Foildrive or the Manta Takeoff.
-those are about $5k
-there is also a full kit on michobby for $2k and aliexpress for $2k
-there is incomplete kits on michobby for 6374 80kv, with folding prop, with waterproof 130a esc, remote, and 8s3p 12.6ah 29.6V for $770 but they have provided zero information regarding what other parts are needed
-on alibaba there is 6374 150kv and 100a esc, with folding prop, remote, for $350 with battery at $125. Total $425 but no support for parts possibly needed
No sane person is going to make a kit and sell it at cost with all the support headaches that are going to come with it.
-i wouldnt want it at cost, they deserve a profit and have already priced some incomplete kits accordingly
Electronics and salt water is a recipe for disaster hence the high margin that companies charge for their systems.
-the incomplete kits i mentioned have already priced in their margins, but they have not provided the instructions on how to use it.
All this stuff is expensive, and without e-bike scale the price will not come down to sub $1000 for a turnkey kit without some clever engineering which will take time and money.
-the scale appears to have already reached the $1k price point but the instructions are missing.
The current commercial offerings are about as low power as you want. The Venn diagram of people wanting to have an assist just for dock starting is infinitesimally small. Almost everyone wants to ride small foils on small boards which the current assists barely cope with.
-exclusively for dockstarts is not necessary, the 6374 motor has shown to be able to get up on the flats on the michobby youtube and it is only $770, if i can get a list of the remaining parts needed and add it up, it will be about $1k to $1.3k and that will be very appealing.
I am talking with suppliers at alibaba who see the potential in selling a affordable and complete kit, many could not do it or would not provide instructions. How many people would buy it if it was $1k? I know 5, but i will make youtube videos if if i can get it to work and i guess i could make a website and ask for a 25% margin, so roughly $1.25k total
For a very very good reason. The Maytech assist motors are absolute junk. They have a lower longevity than a carboard box in water. They are underpowered for what they are as their stator size is small. I had to completely re-do the motor to make it useful. On top of that they don’t understand the requirements properly so the products fail early and they don’t offer replacements. Try warranty a maytech vesc or motor that failed through their quality issues.
A 1k foil assist will never happen. There’s no way anyone would be crazy enough to put that to market. If a company made a very average plastic housing, maybe the assist prices could come down to $3k, but a plastic housing is a massive risk because users are generally lazy and bump things leading to failures. Because of the nature of sport and the environment, efoils and assist products need to be near bombproof to guarantee a companies future.
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For a very very good reason. The Maytech assist motors are absolute junk. They have a lower longevity than a carboard box in water. They are underpowered for what they are as their stator size is small. I had to completely re-do the motor to make it useful. On top of that they don’t understand the requirements properly so the products fail early and they don’t offer replacements. Try warranty a maytech vesc or motor that failed through their quality issues.
-sorry about your negative experience, good to hear your review of the product though, i will keep it in mind because I would need it to last over 100 sessions. Did you have a ceramic motor or stainless? Which motor?
A 1k foil assist will never happen. There’s no way anyone would be crazy enough to put that to market. If a company made a very average plastic housing, maybe the assist prices could come down to $3k, but a plastic housing is a massive risk because users are generally lazy and bump things leading to failures. Because of the nature of sport and the environment, efoils and assist products need to be near bombproof to guarantee a companies future.
-as mentioned in my previous post, the prices have already come down to $2k. Prices will continue to come down IMO.
Please use the quote option instead of copy and past…
It has nothing to do with the bearings. The motor has a 40mm stator which means it can’t develop a good amount of torque and is inefficient. Then the motor is not potted properly meaning it degrades and rusts faster than Maytechs competition. Search the forum for more reviews on maytech products.
You are welcome to that opinion. The prices haven’t come down to $2k though from any respectable company that will consistently honour the warranty.
Already you can’t find a suitable housing even though you can just search other threads on this forum.
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Interesting, thanks for your review of the maytech motors. I will keep it in mind. What do you think would be the best company for a motor similar to the 6374?
Reply from supplier “The cost of the 6384 is about the same as the 6374, the cost of the 12S2P and 8S3P is exactly the same, but the thrust of the 6384 motor +12S2P battery will be much larger. What really affects the cost is the number of units purchased, and if you buy more than 10 units, the price will be much lower.”
My response, " Ok i understand. The total savings for the smaller motor, battery, and esc would only be about $150.
Why does the diy kit cost $770 for the motor, prop, esc, battery, and remote but the complete kit with additional battery case, and motor mount pod, cost an additional $1300?
Below are guesstimates:
- Battery Case: ?
- Motor Mount Pod: should be around $75 for 3d printed part
- Additional Engineering/Design Costs: $100
- Assembly/Quality Control: $200
- Marketing/Packaging/Warranty: get rid of fancy carrying case packaging
Total additional cost: $375
$770+$375= $1,145
A complete kit less than $1,500 seems possible with 6384 motor.
With smaller motor a kit less than $1,350 seems possible.
I suppose part of the cost is that the diy kits are purchased at a higher volume to lower the price but the complete kit is not purchased at high enough volume.
Anyways, thanks for looking into these things and trying to find a way to bring the price down on a complete kit if at all possible."
There is one supplier left, out of about 15 that I contacted, they said they need 3 months to put it together.
I doubt this supplier will accomplish the approximate $1k price point so it does appear that we need to consider even smaller motors than the 6374 and 6384. The questions to answer is, how small do we have to go in motor and battery size to achieve the 20 minute pumping mark on a 1310 PNG foil size at the $1k price point and will it be a compelling demonstration? Well, if someone can put it together, I am willing to test it.
I suspect we will only need a net wattage of output of 450W
You can use the following to drop price to as low as possible and put kit together. The following person said it does not get them on foil alone but that it just assists that process, this would be perfect and reach a large market to bring price to around $1k if possible.
Do you sell any motors that small? He said it produces about 1000w watts. We just need folding propeller and universal mast motor mount clip.
- small 5065 330kv motor, rewound to 8 turns in Y-configuration, resoldering the original winding from delta to Y may also work (7 turns if I counted correctly)
- 3d printed „clip-on“ mast mount and folding prop
- Flycolor 90A ESC
- 6s2p Samsung 40T battery pack
- cheap waterproof remote and electronic box
That kit will work out n maybe 0.5% of assist users. To make a kit that’s worth selling it needs to work on 95% of the assist user population.
Is your end goal to see a Chinese manufacturer selling a kit to the public or is it to get them to sell it to you and then you sell it to the public?
Either way, you not buying or testing any of these configs you are making up yourself so I’m not too sure what you are trying to do?
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That kit will work out n maybe 0.5% of assist users. To make a kit that’s worth selling it needs to work on 95% of the assist user population.
-it will work for everyone i know who can already foil and those who are learning new disciplines
Is your end goal to see a Chinese manufacturer selling a kit to the public or is it to get them to sell it to you and then you sell it to the public?
-goal is to get a product that i can make videos for and direct buyers to them also while having fun and accelerating my learning curve
Either way, you not buying or testing any of these configs you are making up yourself so I’m not too sure what you are trying to do?
-i am ready to buy, the config just have to be ready to buy
-i am trying to either put a complete kit together myself or encourage the suppliers who already have the parts to put them together or at least put together the compatibility list with links and to see if the $1k foil assist is possible yet. I seems to be possible but no complete kits are ready. This is my journey to understanding the process, it is based off no experience whoch would be relatable to anyone on the same pursuit. If i get a list here that i endorse i will make a thorough post about it and demonstration video and complete tutorial video on youtube
You clearly don’t know or understand what’s at play here. To get someone up that is over 80kg requires a lot more power than a 5065 can push out. You can already buy a 5065 off the shelf fully waterproofed too, no need to rewind them.
So you are trying to be an ambassador/influencer
You need to get experience before you start to endorse anything. No one will buy into a kit that is endorsed by someone without experience.
That means you will need to buy a kit that’s known to work and then use that to gain better knowledge and foiling experience. Once you have that, then you’ll need to start experimenting with smaller motors, ESC’s and batteries. However there’s the reality that not everyone weighs the same and for those that are heavier and are inexperienced they need a lot more power and larger motors, ESC’s and batteries.
Lastly, highlight the text you want to copy and then quote it instead of pasting it. This thread is horrible to follow otherwise.
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Reading this thread is making my eyes bleed !!!..Please read the relevant threads on the forum and do some preparatory work. Iif you want to DIY a project like this, you MUST do this to get a good idea of what is involved. Some of the contributors are “experts” and some not but everyone is helpful. Asking the same questions over and over will NOT give you a quick fix and get you out on the water straight away.
Learn to walk before you run, essentially.
Might also be useful to trim your posts to exclude the previous content…its very hard to understand what you are after with all the added text and puts people off.
My two cents…good luck
K
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“To get someone up” there are a lot of assumptions, namely board and wing design. We are already get up. We need assistance, not dominance. Seems like everyone here wants a jetski level of power, we just need assistance. The last guys experience said it could not get him up but only acts as an assistant, unfortunately based on the current price points of 6374, i am down to try 5065 if it can bring the price of the michobby $2k kit down to $1k, along with smallest everything. I can pump for 1 minute at 10mph, i want to pump for 10 minutes.
-i would buy the kit, demonstrate it, and my demonstration would be my endorsement if it worked, i dont see it not working though, i can already get on foil and pump, i just need a little bit to reduce effort and for it to last 2 years.
-for people who are heavier, i have been foiling since i was 240lb, it can be done without motors, we have the parts, not the complete kit, we have seen other demonstrate it, but we dont have a kit. Does foil drive have some patent on this kit or something? This stuff always drops in price over time, i am down to wait another 3 years for this stuff to be this developed. What i represent is consumer demand, i desire it and so do my friends, this is just my first attempt at learning foil.zone and documentation the road blocks.